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Room for All - S1 E8 - Nathalie Kasselis, Hotel Etico Training Manager

• Andrea Comastri and Saraya O'Connell • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Training for Inclusion: Interview with Hotel Etico's Training Manager

In this episode of Room for All, hosts Andrea Comastri and Saraya O'Connell welcome special guest Nathalie Kasselis, the Training Manager at Hotel Etico. They discuss Nathalie's personal background, her passion for fitness, nature, and poetry, and her professional journey from finance to training. The conversation delves deep into the individualized training methods developed by Nathalie, focusing on strength-based, practical, and accessible approaches for trainees with disabilities. They also cover the importance of employer adaptability, the role of visual aids, and how to measure the success of training programs. Additionally, Nathalie shares her excitement about securing the Global Footprints scholarship and her upcoming trip to study disability employment inclusion overseas. This episode provides valuable insights into creating inclusive workplaces and tailored training programs.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings

01:49 Meet Nathalie Kasselis: Our Training Manager

03:25 Nathalie's Background and Journey

04:20 Role and Responsibilities of a Training Manager

06:41 Training Approach and Curriculum Development

16:03 Measuring Success and Challenges

19:34 Advice to Employers

21:11 Breaking Down Barriers in Society

22:20 Addressing Skill and Need Gaps

23:11 Practical Examples and Solutions

24:33 Tools and Adjustments for Accessibility

26:08 Visual Aids and Training Efficiency

27:33 Implementing Accessibility in the Workplace

34:34 Global Footprints Scholarship

38:08 Final Thoughts and Gratitude



Andrea: Okay, we're rolling. Welcome back to Room for All. Welcome back to the studio. My name is Andrea Comastri and I'm here with my co host Saraya O'Connell.

Saraya: Hello. How are you? 

Andrea: I'm very good. How are you? 

Saraya: Good. Happy Wednesday. 

Andrea: Happy Wednesday. So today we have our special guest, another special guest, Nathalie How are you Nathalie 

Nathalie: Good, good. 

Saraya: Today's focus will be all about training. 

Saraya: All about training because [00:02:00] Nathalie is our training manager. 

Nathalie: Hmm hmm 

Andrea: So tell us a little bit more about you, Nathalie as a person, rather than your role at first. 

Nathalie: How would you describe me as a person?

Saraya: Oh, um, me, if I was to describe you, I would say that you are a very self reflective, um, individual. I think that you Love life and you live life with enthusiasm and with the biggest heart I've ever seen. That's how I would describe you. 

Nathalie: Oh, thank you. 

Andrea: But as a person who is Nathalie Mm. 

Saraya: Now we, we've answered what we think, fun love, 

Andrea: how old are you, what do you do outside of work? 

Nathalie: I am 26, um, I think I would describe myself as creative, passionate, I'm really into fitness and nature. Yeah, I love poetry, I like rock climbing. 

Andrea: I didn't know you liked poetry. 

Nathalie: Oh really? 

Saraya: She loves poetry, 

Nathalie: yeah. I do a lot of that, um. 

Andrea: Multilingual? 

Nathalie: No. 

Andrea: No, [00:03:00] you are multilingual. 

Nathalie: Oh, yeah. Multilingual poetry. Yeah. That'd be hard. Um, yeah, I am multilingual. 

Andrea: What languages do you speak? 

Nathalie: Um, French. Yeah. 

Andrea: Cause you grew up as a, like that was your native language?

Nathalie: Um, not my native, but yeah, most of my family live in France. Yeah. Mom's Sicilian. Dad's French Irish. So. Yeah. No Aussie blood in me, but yeah, lots of European connections. 

Andrea: And, uh, professionally. So we said that you're the training manager,

Saraya: but let's talk about your background because you never thought that you Well, I mean, you didn't, that's know that you, right.

Andrea: Before joining Etico 

Saraya: yeah. Before joining Etico you really didn't know that you were, what did you study? Yeah. What did you do for work? 

Nathalie: Um, uh, so at uni I did finance. Um, then I worked in financial planning for a bit. Um, then moved to the Blue Mountains from. Uh, Sydney and then 

Andrea: during COVID 

Nathalie: during COVID and yeah, I was looking for a different job, a change of career. I have had a bit of disability experience in the past. Um, [00:04:00] but when I found this, I was like, Oh my God, this sounds amazing. It was also pretty much three years ago as well. 

Andrea: Yes in a couple couple of days.

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Saraya: In a couple of days. 

Nathalie: At the start of everything, we only had six trainees and I just saw the, Immense opportunity to be part of. 

Saraya: I think you were my second, maybe my second hire when, after I started.

Nathalie: Yeah. 

Saraya: We had a very, very small team. 

Nathalie: Yeah. 

Andrea: So what does the training manager do here? 

Saraya: Yeah. What is your role? 

Nathalie: Yeah. So half of my role is with the trainees. So training the trainees in hospitality. And the other half I would describe as training the employers or industry partners in how to train people with disability and, um, disability specific training, disability etiquette, that sort of things. So bridging the two gaps, um, and working in both. Yeah. 

Andrea: And you work very closely now with our employment manager, Sophia, that we've already spoken with. Um, in fact, yesterday, I think you were out and about with her, right? 

Nathalie: We did some training. Yeah. So like, I'll work very closely with Sophia's, the idea is to, [00:05:00] um, prepare, uh, employers, our industry partners as much as possible. And so we'll, I'll pass on as much information as I can to them about, um, the analysis of the trainees, what they need, what their support needs are, what their skill levels are. Um, what I recommend they, they adjust in their role and so that when, you know, our trainees start work, the employer is prepared and educated and our trainee is well supported.

Andrea: And it's great that you now get that exposure because until now you sort of. You see them until graduation and then they go, you and you know, like, and the success is so great as a result of, of, of the training that you and everybody else provides. Um, so at least now you've sort of can see them ongoing plus the new transition program. You see them coming back

Saraya: and yeah, so not only do you work closely with industry and with Sophia and our graduates, but you work really closely with one, the trainees here and two, the managers here and the support workers, like [00:06:00] with everybody. So I think, um, you're a very crucial part of Etico, um, but let's go back to the beginning. Cause now we're all that way at the grads, but we'll go back to the beginning. Um, When you started, I remember having a meeting with you and Andrea, and this was after you got your training and assessing, and we were like, we want, so we were doing training It was very ad hoc. The hospitality team was doing the training. It wasn't well documented. This was the first six, right? So it wasn't very, um, 

Nathalie: Formalized. 

Saraya: Formalized, right? 

Andrea: We knew what we wanted. 

Saraya: We knew what we wanted and we knew what we were doing. But it was about translating what we were doing on the floor and putting it into the curriculum. 

Andrea: What's our approach to training? 

Nathalie: Okay. Our approach, training, strength-based approach.

Saraya: Yes. 

Nathalie: So, um, what are they good at? What do they enjoy? Let's work with their strengths. Um, the training's all individualized as well. So every trainee is different. I'll train them differently. The approach is gonna be different. Um, they might have different, [00:07:00] um, needs. Learning styles make learn at a different pace. So even, you know, organizing trainings with groups of trainees, the groups will be a bit different. We train skills that are relevant to the role that we're aiming for, um, and are transferable to roles, the same role outside of Etico So that's our approach. 

Andrea: Cause you need to think forward, right? Cause you, you, you, you train them to perform here, but then you need to know that once they're out there, they're not going to have the same level of support that they get here. So it is challenging. 

Saraya: So when you say it's individualized. Um, you know, everybody learns very differently, so it's really about breaking down the barriers of how they learn. So some people might thrive, you know, for example, in a workshop, um, you know, or reading and so on, but then other ones really thrive with that hands on, right? 

Andrea: The majority, the majority in our case, probably it's more hands on, right? 

Nathalie: Which is sort of kind of is a nice segue as to how I designed the curriculum [00:08:00] is to be really practical and hands on because most of our trainings do learn that way. And also, um, most of HOSPO, well, the roles we're aiming for are all hands on. Um, so yeah. 

Saraya: So what's the difference between our curriculum and say a CERT II in hospitality? 

Nathalie: Okay, let me get my notes. 

Saraya: Is that on the script 

Andrea: You can look at the notes, put them down and then I'll cut it so that it doesn't look like you've taken on the notes.

Saraya: Um, 

IMG_6551: ask the 

Saraya: I'll ask the question again when you've got them. 

Nathalie: Okay. Well, maybe I can talk a bit about how I created the curriculum. 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Nathalie: Okay. So what I did is I looked at the SIT, um, hospitality and tourism training package, which is the nationally recognized training package for hospo and tourism. And it's under that package. You can do your certificates in hospitality or certificates in events or in tourism. And so what I did is I looked at the CERT 1, 2 and 3 in hospitality and open them up and had a look at what was involved in it. And how it works is. You've got the certificate. Under the certificate, you've got units of competency. And so for Cert 1 in Hospo, you've got to have 3 core and 3 electives, so 6 units. For Cert 2, it's 6 and 6. And for Cert 3, it's um, [00:09:00] 9 and 3. So you've got 15 units altogether. So, um, So each unit, when you open that up, it then, um, sorry, each unit is then comprised of what's called elements. And then each element is comprised of performance criteria. So your unit might be, have four elements in it and each element will then have. Two or three performance criteria, what do you have to perform to satisfy that element? And you've got to satisfy all those elements. 

Saraya: There's so much in it. 

Nathalie: After the elements and performance criteria, there's the foundational skills, which goes is basically talks about the, the expected level of like reading information, technology, oral communication, initiative, teamwork, all those sorts of skills that that course is, um, designed in line with, um, after the foundational skills, you've got a, what's called performance evidence. Which is a whole long list of bullet points of things that the, uh, the participant needs to. Perform in order to achieve competency. And then you've got knowledge evidence, which is another long list of bullet points [00:10:00] that the participant needs to have knowledge about in order to achieve competency. And so in your RTO courses, you'd have the practical activities or we'll all would have to link to the performance evidence and all of the knowledge test workbook quizzes. They're all linked to the knowledge evidence. And so all of that comprises is what is what comprises one unit of competency. Now times that by 15, and then you've got your Cert III 

Saraya: That's so much. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. And so what I did was I looked through all these units of competency and then what constitutes each of them. And I sort of asked myself, okay, well, what's relevant, um, what's, um, helpful for our trainees. You know, we were aiming for, um, certain, uh, hospo roles within the timeframe of approximately one year. So what's realistic and what's transferable. I asked myself, you know, when we send, uh, grads out, what. What skills and knowledge are they expecting our trainees to have? And then, so I went through all the [00:11:00] units and chose the ones that I thought, no, satisfied those questions and, um, designed our curriculum based off that and then made it accessible. So made sure everything was written in plain English was highly visual, um, extremely practical. So that our guys that have difficulties with, you know, with Reading and writing and all communication, like all of their needs can be supported through this curriculum. Things can be amended. It's been designed with accessibility in mind. The nationally recognized training is obviously not designed with accessibility in mind. A whole world is not designed with accessibility in mind. 

Andrea: Because the training approach and what we're trying to achieve is just as much as about the technical skills. As much as it is about confidence, right? About them developing the confidence in themselves. 

Nathalie: Yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. 

Andrea: And so, so breaking it down and sort of making it simple and achievable. 

Nathalie: Yeah. 

Andrea: Um, it's, it's what makes a difference. 

Saraya: A hundred percent. Yeah. 

Nathalie: And like a lot of this. Yeah. Um, so, um, I think that's, so that's a really important piece of this, this training is, is classroom style. [00:12:00] So you're, you're sitting down for a lot of it. You're, you're watching the whiteboard, the trainer going through it. And like, if you struggle with reading, if you struggle with focus, like, it's just not, it's not helpful. Um, and so, yeah, that's why I. Yeah. Our trainees aren't doing those set one, two and three. Yeah. It will definitely be an avenue for some of them if they want to pursue more HOSPO. But, um, yeah, I decided it's not going to be suited and we need to make something better. 

Andrea: And you've developed lots of videos, visual resources, assessment. They do assessments online as well, don't they? Internal assessments.

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. So we've gotten an LMS and the learning management system. So all the curriculums also online, um, they can access things remotely. Um, we do have some quizzes, but the focus, uh, so the focus isn't, um, necessarily the quizzes and the knowledge tests because the roles are all so practical, um, that's more just cause they love doing quizzes. It's a bit of homework. It's a good way of refreshing, um, yourself. 

Andrea: And you started with the restaurant. The floor, [00:13:00] the bar, and then moving on to housekeeping, reception, and the other area. 

Nathalie: Most of our trainees elect to be in F& B. Most of our grads, I think it's like 60 something percent are in F& B. 

Saraya: This morning, yeah, it is. It is 60 percent in F& B. 

Nathalie: So yeah, we've really done that curriculum very well. And that's been a huge focus. 

Saraya: Yeah. We've had more people, like we've had more like hands on experience to deliver that training. 

Nathalie: Um, 

Saraya: I'm seeing Quinn tomorrow. So he, for example, is now an apprentice chef. So the kitchen curriculum is very, very, very different too.

Andrea: Yeah. And with Quinn, in effect, the success was about developing his confidence because we didn't have a curriculum at the time. 

Saraya: We had started, 

Andrea: but it was very early days. So he actually had a lot of opportunities to get on the tools because of the chef we had at the time, because we were a bit quieter. But yeah, we didn't really have anything. 

Saraya: I can't wait to actually catch up with him tomorrow and see how TAFE is going. [00:14:00] Cause that's going to be very interesting. 

Andrea: Yeah. So he works at the Fairmont. 

Saraya: Yeah. And he goes to TAFE one day a week. So I, yeah, I can't wait to pick his brain about how that training is going.

Andrea: And I'd like to take the opportunity now to congratulate ourselves and the Fairmont. For the high commendation at the HM Awards the other day. Cause um, the other night we, yeah, got recognized for our collaboration. Fairmont employs four of our graduates and Quinn was the one, the spearheaded 

Saraya: He was. 

Andrea: The Program.

Saraya: Yeah. Anyway, back to, back to the curriculum. Sorry. I just, cause I know Quinn's coming tomorrow and I know that he's, you know, not the 60 percent that did F& B, although he was really good in F& B. He's great in F& B. 

Nathalie: Very talented. Yeah. When he first started his apprenticeship, I was like so excited to hear his perspective because yeah, TAFE is an RTO that does, yeah, that gives you success. Um, yeah, it's definitely suited for some people. It's not suited for everyone, that type of learning. 

Saraya: Majority. It's not suited for majority of disabilities, I would say. 

Nathalie: And again, it depends what your goal is, where do you want to go and what's required to, [00:15:00] you know, get there. 

Saraya: And what industry you want as well.

Nathalie: Mm. Yeah. So, yeah, I do wanna make a caveat, like there is definitely a place for ally rec recognized training. 

Saraya: Absolutely. 

Nathalie: Your, your RSA, maybe like your white card or your food hygiene. 

Saraya: Definitely. 

Andrea: Which they do right here. 

Nathalie: Yeah, they do do that here. Yeah. Employers want to know that their staff have been through some very regulated training. Um, RTOs are very heavily regulated. Um, but again, it's not needed for all areas. I don't know. 

Andrea: And not for people with intellectual disability, it's like, it's just I'm really interested in disability.

Saraya: It doesn't even have to be intellectual. 

Nathalie: I mean, there's things called reasonable adjustments, which RTOs are like they have to do for people with disability and they've, um, but it's not implemented too well.

Andrea: No, because the focus, the focus is always on the delivery of the program rather than on the person that you're delivering it to. That's it. 

Saraya: There's certain tick boxes that you have to meet, there's certain criteria. 

Nathalie: And RTO trainers aren't, um, I mean, yeah, they're not trained in disability. They're [00:16:00] not, you know, in how to. to, yeah, to. work with disability. 

Andrea: So Nat how do you measure the success of your training? 

Nathalie: Mm hmm. I think success looks different to each trainee. Um, my biggest marker is probably the increase in self confidence. So like doing things not because they think they need to do it, but because they know how to do it. Like I know this how my do I do my job or I know I've got to do this or do that. that self confidence is key. amazing. So in things like initiative is huge. Um, pace, increasing pace, accuracy. Um, uh, yeah, 

Saraya: there's so many different 

Andrea: willingness to be here. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Enthusiasm. Um, just seeing how they respond to feedback. Like, you know, if they make mistakes and they're like super keen to, Oh, that's okay. I'm going to like really keen to improve. Like that mindset is really, Really awesome to see. Um, [00:17:00] yeah, I love those things. 

Saraya: And we do, we do measure like the training. So we do have assessments, 

Nathalie: oh yeah, a hundred percent. So like after every shift, um, our trainees work, um, staff will complete a shift report on that shift. So much reporting, which is really important because we've got to do lots of reporting on how things are going. But, um, in that shift report will say what did the training do on shift? What can the trainee improve on? Uh, were they on time? Um, things like that. So I'm constantly reviewing those and that's where I get really good, um, qualitative data on how they're going. Um, that's up to date. Um, and as for the internal training curriculum on the LMS, we do, um, reporting on that as well. So assessments are all up to date. So we've also got the qualitative data. 

Andrea: And then the other thing talking about the LMS, you also look after the provision of the training or making it available to staff training, right?

Nathalie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah. We've got other, other training on the LMS for staff. 

Saraya: All of our staff have to do quite a lot of 

Andrea: some compliance related, but also sort of availability of 

Saraya: NDIS is a heavily regulated area. So yeah, we, we, um, it's the same, we use the same system, the same LMS for our trainees and for our staff I mean, our trainees are our staff but yeah, we have one system, but yeah, yeah.

Andrea: And what do you find most challenging instead, 

Nathalie: the biggest challenge I think in my role is when things don't land. So when I'm trying to train something or teach something to a trainee, and it's just not landing, so, um, maybe they don't understand it. Maybe they do something completely different. Maybe it's just, um, whatever, whatever I'm trying to do, it's not working. 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Nathalie: Um, and so that's the hardest bit. Um, but that's, I guess my role is. reflecting on why isn't this working? Maybe it's something to do with me. Maybe a need isn't being met or maybe it's something else and you've got to be really creative and think outside [00:19:00] of the box.

Nathalie: Like the trainees are my biggest teachers. You know, I only learned how to train because of my interactions with our trainees, because every time something doesn't land, it's feedback. Something didn't work. So what can I think of? What can I change? What can I put in? And it's, that's how I. You know, increase my skills and because I work with so many different trainees, I'm getting that feedback, like multiplied in so many different ways. Um, and so, yeah, my trainees, I'm like my biggest teachers. 

Andrea: And that actually, it's a great segue to Um, to give feedback to the conversation about advice to employers. Right. Cause it's all about feedback. So like, if you, if you were to give advice to, to employers that will eventually employ our graduates, what are, what are the top, you know, few pieces of advice that you will give? 

Nathalie: Advice number one, which is sort of what I was talking about earlier, but when something doesn't land, take it as feedback. And so you think about what can I change? And this ties in nicely [00:20:00] with the social model of disability, which looks at disability as a result of the interactions between society and the person with disability. And so, um, the person's not disabled because of their disability that they're experiencing the disability because of society, a barrier in society. And so society needs to change in order to. Um, make things more accessible. So sort of, you know, riffing on that, you, when something doesn't land, Oh, what can I change? Is it the tone of my voice? Is it cause I'm giving too much eye contact or not enough eye contact? Is it cause I've given something and the font's too small or is it too distracting? Is there lots of things going on in the peripheral? Is it a, you know, a bad time of day? Um, did I use too many words in my sentence or did I just ask, um, three questions in one, you know? So things like that is. You've got to reflect and take it as feedback rather than blaming the other person and getting frustrated.

Saraya: I think that that should be. regardless of [00:21:00] disability, um, we should all be doing that all of the time. Um, not saying I'm great at it. I mean, a hundred percent, especially at home, but yeah, I'll try. Um, but yeah, I think we should be doing that. And yeah, it's, it's not, I think you said something really great on the destination New South Wales video, um, which I love and I watch all the time, by the way, um, is that we need to, it's, There's not a problem. It's about, it's not their fault. It's society's fault. Um, these barriers are put in place from society. Um, and it's breaking them down one at a time. 

Nathalie: Yep. Exactly. 

Saraya: All the time. 

Nathalie: Yeah, 

Saraya: it's true. Like what is it that you always say, Andrea, is that, um, when you walk in the door, you see disability for the first few minutes and then you don't see disability. That's breaking down a barrier. Every single time when a guest is walking through this door [00:22:00] or whether a guest is walking through the Fullerton or the Mercure or the Fairmont, the W, when they're seeing people with a disability work and be included in society, it normalizes things and it breaks down those barriers because they, they look inward and go, Oh, 

Andrea: of course. So that's the first advice. So use, failure or something doesn't land these feedback and keep sort of iterating the learning. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Just on that. Um, If something doesn't land, think about. You know, is it a skill gap or a need gap? 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Nathalie: And so Um, let's say the level of skill required for the task is like up here, but the, the skill of the person is a bit lower. There's obviously a gap there. And so if it's a skill gap, you can ask yourself, is this trainable? Um, are there resources I can create? Are there visuals I can create? Um, in order to, to, to. Or can maybe just more work experience help fill this gap, the skill gap. [00:23:00] If it's a need gap, it means that, um, the person has a need and that need isn't being met, um, but they have the skills to complete the task. So they're completely proficient in the task, but because their need isn't being met, they can't complete the task. 

Andrea: Can you give us a practical example? 

Nathalie: Um, it could be to do with, uh, maybe height. Um, it could maybe be to do with, yeah, dexterity or the font size being too, Too small, um, it could be to do with like sensory aversion. So maybe they're very sensitive to, to background noise or to certain textures. Um, 

Saraya: and so it's about eliminating that with noise cancellation. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Or like noise, dampening earplugs, or maybe someone's in the kitchen and they have a texture aversion towards. Um, cutting bananas or, 

Saraya: um, I hate chicken. 

Andrea: It's very personal.

Nathalie: So, yeah, or anything. And like, well, a simple way of overcoming that would be, you know, allowing them to maybe wear gloves or, um, maybe use tongs or maybe just avoid that task, you know, see if you can work around it and get their needs met [00:24:00] so that they're not, um, you know, experiencing that barrier 

Saraya: A simple one that everybody overlooks. Right. Um, and this is for everybody, not just people with disability. It's really short. People can't reach certain things. So you make adjustments for people. that are short and you make adjustments for people that are tall in every workplace. We do that. Yeah. Um, that's an adjustment and people don't think that an adjustment like that, but in a different context for somebody with a disability is huge.

Nathalie: Yeah. It could do also to do with, um, lighting as well. Um, or. Also getting different tools. So if they struggle with, um, measuring things like with maths, you can use jiggers. So they're pre measured, um, wine jiggers, shot jiggers. Um, you can get like an automatic wine pourer if they, they maybe have some shaky hands and they struggle, um, accuracy with pouring or an automatic coffee tamper or a topple tray, or even like in housekeeping, if you know, there's a, you can get [00:25:00] bedsheet tuckers, you know, so there's like. Or like a tool belt. So you'd have to keep leaning down. Like there's so many tools out there, um, that can help alleviate a need gap and allow the person to complete tasks. 

Andrea: And we've got most of that stuff here. I mean, it's all, again, it's very individualized, but, um, and you know, like even like the automatic coffee tamper, everyone loves using it. Not just the trainees. This would be, I love just sticking the thing there, just does it by itself. 

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: What? Makes it 

Nathalie: Well, accessibility is not just for disabilities. 

Saraya: It is for everyone. 

Nathalie: Yeah, yep. 

Andrea: And the great thing is that. I think we spoke about it, um, in other episodes, but most of these things, it's likely that there's government funding that can help employers actually pay for it.

Saraya: It's not out of pocket. 

Nathalie: Yeah. So a lot of, uh, like tools or equipment can be, um, gotten through job access through, um, a workplace assessment where an OT comes and observes that the person working in their role. 

Andrea: An OT for someone that is not in the industry. 

Nathalie: Is an occupational therapist. Yeah. And they'll [00:26:00] write a report on, uh, recommended. Tools that will support that person in their, in their employment. But other, other things you can actually create. So like laminated labels. 

Andrea: Yeah, give us some examples of stuff that you've done. 

Saraya: Oh, um, I love in the laundry, love the laundry. 

Nathalie: Yeah, we've got different, like pictures in the in housekeeping for different sheet sizes. And we've got recipe cards for each of them. Other things we've done like, um, color coding the, the beer glasses. So like a schooner is, um, orange and pints of red, both on the fridge, but then also on the POS 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Nathalie: Um, and like the happy hour is just a happy face on top of that color. So, um, or when I'm doing training with, you know, how to pull a shot for a coffee. Each step is a, is a picture and I've cut it out and I've made it. So you can actually blue tag it on top of the coffee machine. So as you're doing it, you can follow the step by step. And the good thing with visuals is that it allows trainees to complete it independently and to self correct. And so you can just be there to prompt, you know, what's the next step? Are we up to that step yet? Um, but they, it's like self learning and [00:27:00] eventually the whole point of visuals is that they can complete it. Independently. And so we use visuals for everywhere in the hotel. Like all our SOPs, all our SOPs are visuals, pictures, 

Saraya: SOPs? 

Nathalie: standard operating procedures, so how to restock the way to station is a picture of what it's meant to look like when it's stocked, but then also a line diagram, because not everyone finds pictures helpful. And then picture lists, lists of each component that goes in there. 

Saraya: It's great. And the thing is, and. Nat and I said so when we were going around, when I was going around with destination, New South Wales, I was constantly banging on about it. Accessibility. It doesn't have to be hard. I mean, this sounds like it's very time consuming, right? And we have Nat that does it, but it's not that time consuming. 

Andrea: No, no, 

Nathalie: it saves time and it saves staff resources as well. 

Saraya: It's not just for people with a disability. Everybody. benefits from this. 

Andrea: I know that I've mentioned my learning at the MBA years ago, several times before, but I remember one, one unit where we're doing operations [00:28:00] management and operations is all about efficiencies and process and procedures and so on. And. Our lecturer was actually the operations manager, I think, if I remember correctly, at Cochlear, Cochlear, the cochlear implant, right? That they do the, for, uh, the bionic ear, which at the time I think it was based in North Ryde. And so we went to visit and I remember specifically visiting and they had like mats with exactly what we do here for the table settings for exactly where the tools had to go. Whether it was a scalpel or a screwdriver or whatever it is, mapped out on a laminated Uh, sheet and then you're exactly where he was. I mean, he went and do extreme and where he put his coffee cup on the table and everything like that, but that was just a bit of a joke, but it's literally like, it's all about the efficiency. I mean, and in our case. It's about sort of facilitating that learning and repetition, the value of repetition. Right. 

Nathalie: Yeah. And on that, we'd [00:29:00] say, um, we do a picture for how the tables meant to be set. And this is as earlier I was talking about, like when things aren't landing, that's the confused, like that's the frustrating thing. And so I'd made this visual of how the tables meant to be set a real life picture that they can walk around and you've got the, the folks in the night, the napkin, the. You know, the candle and the song paper, all that sort of stuff on the picture. And so the trainers were using it. And then I was noticing there was still so many errors. Like the classic one, the knife was flipped the wrong way and it was really difficult for them to get a hundred percent accuracy independently. And I was like, ah, maybe there's too many items on this visual. And so I was like, And they were really struggling with the fork and knife placement. Um, and so I was like, what if I just made a life size napkin, fork and knife, life size so they can put it up right next to it. And it's just the visual for the fork and knife when you're, when you're setting the napkins. And so, you know, it took me five minutes to take a photo, make it life size, laminated a couple and the trainees, you know, walk around and set the table with it. A hundred percent [00:30:00] accuracy. 

Andrea: I've witnessed it myself. It's unbelievable. I remember like within one week to the next, right? 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Andrea: One week. So Michael going nuts with one of our trainees because the table, he kept repeating how to set it up, right? Mm-Hmm. set it up. Set it up. That's how you do it. Do it. 

Saraya: He wasn't going nuts the nuts 

Andrea: No, no, no. As in, as in just 

Saraya: he was getting frustrated.

Andrea: Frustratingly 

Saraya: he was getting frustrated, 

Andrea: uh, because no matter in whatever way he was telling him to do it, the next setting, it was the other way around. 

Saraya: Yeah. 

Nathalie: Mm-Hmm. . 

Andrea: The week after I saw another trainee with that piece of laminated plastic, 

Saraya: a hundred percent accuracy. Yeah. 

Andrea: Independently. Michael was somewhere else doing some other job by himself.

Saraya: I've had that. 

Andrea: And she was just doing it by herself. 

Saraya: I remember setting. 

Andrea: Unbelievable the difference that it made. 

Saraya: I remember setting the restaurant once, um, with our previous cohort and it wasn't landing. And so I would have to go around after, which is time consuming. 

Andrea: Which is not feasible. 

Saraya: Which is not feasible in any business. And yeah, a hundred percent. 

Andrea: So my question is [00:31:00] though, like. It works here, right? But is the expectation that then these things also happen at the employers in industry when they're employed externally, or that they've learned it so well that they won't need it anymore? Because 

Saraya: I think though, it's very different. Like there's very, you know, the way we set our tables here is very different to how other people set their tables. 

Andrea: Do you think that then it will need to be done also in industry employment? 

Nathalie: Are you saying other trainees expecting to have that supported material? I would think that they should, because like on one fold, you know, what, what's more efficient, you know, them having to remember, or them having a laminated piece of paper, um, that they can complete task independently. It all comes back down to those, You know, making workplaces more accessible. 

Andrea: So once it's done, it's done anyway. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. So we can go to the employer and say, Hey, if you want a really efficient worker, just spend a bit of time creating these [00:32:00] visuals and then you'll have more independence, you have more productivity, more efficiency from that worker. If you don't, that's up to you, but you might be doing quite a bit of prompting and correcting and supervising. 

Andrea: I have a better suggestion, Instead of them spending time doing the visuals, get us to do the visuals 

Saraya: We do, we do some. 

Nathalie: Yeah, 

Saraya: we actually do some of them. Yeah, we do. We do. 

Andrea: I know we do. I know we do. It's just a shameless plug to buying our consulting services.

Nathalie: Well, this sort of ties in like with Sophia. Um, you know, when a grad is getting a new job, I'll be like, send me the, send me the job description. I want to see what they're doing. A bit how you have those training packages and you're like, okay, well, what constitutes this? And then I have a look at, okay, what skills are required in these? Because. Stay. People don't think about that sort of stuff. 

Saraya: No, not in a JD. 

Nathalie: A lot of the time you got it. 

Saraya: They're so generic job description. So we use so many acronyms in this like all the time, because there's so many different industries, but yeah, job description, job descriptions are generic and never tailored.

Nathalie: Yeah. And so, I don't, I don't think I went onto [00:33:00] my second piece of advice, which was get to know your employee very well. But it goes to that. It's like, okay, send me their job description. I know them so well. I've trained them. I know their, their skill levels. I know their needs. And I'm in advance going to give you recommendations on things you can create or things you need to make sure are in place before they start so that it's a successful day for everyone. Um, and so I did that recently. I was like, okay, You know, make a visual for this or film this so that they've got a video they can refer back to it. Um, 

Andrea: imagine if every, every employee, regardless of disability had that resource coming along with them when they start. 

Saraya: But we do have that. So even, um, people in the industry that, um, don't I have one of our grads. They call us for advice. 

Andrea: But what I'm saying is many, imagine if Nat comes in, get a job here, and she comes with that support instruction to tell us how to work with her. 

Saraya: Imagine if I had that for you, it would be very helpful. 

Nathalie: And I just want to do a bit of a disclaimer. [00:34:00] Like I meet with the trainee beforehand and I say, okay, what do you want your employer to know about you? Um, and so there is that consent and that we, together we create a bit of a profile and we're like, okay, yeah, let's let your new employee in. Know this so that they can work with you in the best way possible. 

Andrea: Yeah. Great. 

Saraya: Amazing. Great. Um, I think that everybody should get to know their employees. Like Nat, we started this podcast with Nat saying, well, who do you think I am? And we know that, right? You've got to get to know your employees. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Nathalie: Um, yeah. 

Andrea: So now let's change a little bit, TAC. The, um, let's talk about, uh, what's ahead for you. You've got something quite exciting actually coming up. You were successful in securing a scholarship, uh, earlier in the year. 

Nathalie: Yeah.

Saraya: Congratulations by the way. 

Andrea: Yes. 

Nathalie: Thank you. 

Andrea: Tell us a little bit what it's called. What is it for, what are you 

Nathalie: it's the Global Footprints scholarship. Scholarship. Um, it's a scholarship designed for people between [00:35:00] 18 and 25. I was 25. Just got it. 

Saraya: You literally got in with like, I think your birthday was three weeks after.

Nathalie: Yeah. That's it. Um, across different industries. Um, so there's a lot of, there's hospitality, agriculture, construction.

Saraya: There was a lot of agriculture when we went to the presentation 

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. And it's basically like, um, you want to learn more about sustainability in your industry overseas. Yeah. And so you come up with some goals, what do you want to find out and, um, in, in regards to your industry and sustainability and bring that back to Australia. So it's a very flexible sort of self discovery scholarship. Um, I tackled it from the lens of, um, disability employment inclusion in hospitality. Um, and targeting the sustainable development goals of, you know, income, I think it's equality, um, economic growth, um, reduced inequalities, those ones. Um, and so, yeah, I'm going to go overseas for 20 days.

Saraya: So jealous. I want to come. Can you send me, can I go with her? You need a, do you need somebody to come with you? 

Andrea: To carry the [00:36:00] bag. Yeah. So you're effectively going to retrace the path that I took earlier this year. Right. 

Nathalie: Which I'm super keen because like, I only know what I know over here. Um, and I want to see how other. You know, organizations overseas scale, that's one of my goals. It's so, cause I'm so, um, sort of pedantic on the nitty gritty training, um, making it very individualized. And then when I, but I also want to scale, but I don't want to scale at the expense of lack of individualization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I want to go overseas and see how they do it, um, see if we can learn from that. Um, also obviously see the original Etico and, and meet the team there and, and see, you know, what is it like over there, um, observe and yeah, I'm super excited. 

Andrea: So you're going to do France, Italy and Spain, right?

Nathalie: Yes. So far. 

Andrea: So far. 

Andrea: So that's really exciting. And so very grateful to the Global Footprint Scholarship Organization because, um, yeah, it's a great opportunity for [00:37:00] you and, um, we'll find something for you as well. 

Saraya: Well, that's it, like literally we will have a, hopefully have a second hotel by the time you come back. We'll have a second location. 100%. I mean, this will go next year, this, your, um, episode will be in January anyway.

Nathalie: And I think with having a second hotel, the, the beauty of the training curriculum, another thing that I, when I designed it, it was, I want it to be transferred, transfer, copy paste into a different one. So not too specific that there's, you know, it's talking about venue specific policies. Yes, we'll go over that in the training session, but the actual content, um, is designed to be, you know, taught across multiple venues and still 

Saraya: effectively, um, our industry partners could teach our curriculum if they had a trainer. In their hotels. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Like a hundred percent. And they attended my training on how to train people with disability. 

Andrea: If willingness to do it. Uh, the funding to do it, 

Saraya: it does take a lot of work, 

Nathalie: but just learning how to train people with disability, I think is a big [00:38:00] skill because a lot of the reason why it's not landing, it's not because of them. It's because of you. And so, yeah, 

Saraya: reflect and learn. Any final words?

Andrea: Pretty much. Yeah. 

Saraya: We're pretty much at time. You said that we would wrap it up early, but. 

Andrea: You escaped the question, what's in store for you personally? 

Saraya: Yeah, what is, yeah. What is in store for you personally? 

Nathalie: I know you're going to have to ask me next time.

Saraya: Oh, she's coming back. I'm going to take that as you'll come back in a year's time. 

Nathalie: A year, sure.

Saraya: I'll give you a year. Um, I want to personally thank you because I truly believe that, um, I knew in the first five minutes of interviewing you that you were going to be a standout. I really did. But I think that you've taught us a lot, um, personally taught me a lot, um, and yeah, I'm super grateful that you're on our team and the journey with us.

Andrea: Completely agree. And I don't think Hotel Etico would be what it is without you Nat. 

Saraya: I agree. 

Andrea: Honestly, like your contribution has [00:39:00] been. Unbelievable thank you, Nathalie for coming. Hope you enjoyed it. 

Saraya: I hope it wasn't too bad for you.

Andrea: Yes. I'm sure the, uh, the listeners will enjoy it too. 

Nathalie: So I hope it's helpful and practical and, 

Saraya: and of course they can call us if they have more questions. 

Andrea: Of course. So 

Saraya: leave us comments on the thing and we'll answer them. 

Andrea: As always leave us comments, feedback, apparently there's fan mail. You can send almost like a text message on Spotify now.

Saraya: Wowser 

Andrea: So yeah. 

Saraya: Maybe you'll get some fan mail Nat 

Andrea: I think in future we're going to do like live phone calls or something. I want to do a live episode once. 

Saraya: We are so not doing that. I can't be trusted live. 

Andrea: So yeah, subscribe, follow, share, comment. The feedback we've been getting until now has been really overwhelmingly positive. 

Andrea: so thank you, Nathalie for being part of this, um, and for being voluntold. She really was voluntold to come on. Thank you, Saraya as usual. Great pleasure. [00:40:00] And, uh, uh, let's make room for all and keep fighting for inclusion.

 

 

People on this episode

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Andrea Comastri

Host
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Saraya O'Connell

Co-host
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Nathalie Kasselis

Guest